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We have these types of 'debates/comparisons' frequently here from T2T.
I like the analogy that Roy Cam gave on 1 of those a good while back, about how he likes both the 'old-school' swing-feel guys AWA the contempo ones like Tony, leading up to Weckl, Vinnie, Covington, Heredia, Wertico [i realize some of these have stark contrasts AW]. & I understand perfectly well what is meant by preferring ing the swing of Elvin, Deej, Philly or BStewart, Tain, JHamilton, etc instead...
Some cats sound like they bridge a little of both feels/worlds [in certain ways], like some of my faves Gadd, Smith, Gottlieb, Erskine, or Will Kennedy.
It would prob be safe to say that if i heard Virg swing, it'd prob def sound to me to be moreso in the Vinnie/Weckl/Chambers veign than the Elvin, Philly, Blakey veign...but i might be surprised on that one...but if Philly qualified him, then he def saw something in there 'just below the surface.'
I like an idea/'qualification' from Elvin the best: Don't judge or 'stack' anything against something else; rather, judge it according to itself & its own merits.
If i hear something that slams me, wether it's pocket, 100 mph chops with Steel Pulse Time, breathy or greasy groove, funked-'at, slow ballad with deeeep feel, or whatever; if it hits me, it hits me. I don't listen to Tony & say to myself, "But it's not Gadd"...or to Billy, & say, "but it isn't Weckl"...likewise, I don't listen to Toto & say, "gee, it isn't Coltrane," or to the CCEB & say, "it ain't Steely," or to Meshuggah & say, "it isnt Pantera [or heck, classical, FTM]...to me, that is an absurd way to look at something; a very narrow-minded, tunnel-visioned, 'in-the-box' kind of thinking, where one is constantly comparing, unless it's for the learning & understanding process, which is more of a pro-active 'potpourri' type of thing...but I never compare jazz to pop in order to elevate one over the other, or say "latin isn't jazz, & none of it's fusion" [which means a blend of elements of any or all the above], but rather, maybe just simply to find 'the ties that bind,' & leave it at that. Quite frankly, I like WAY too many styles & genres to waste my time & brainpower focusing on this type of thing...i don't prefer to be one of the "[insert my pref'd style here] police!"
If i want to listen to the rhythmical wizardry of PX, then I don't pop it on & say it sux cause it ain't Steely with Gadd. Both are extremely good stuff for WHAT THEY ARE in & of themselves.
That's why I like it all - from Elvin & Deej to Weckl, Virg, Dennis, & Vinnie [AWA all the above & the many others out there, 'famous' & otherwise] - ALL GREAT drummers in & of themselves, in their own right.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 08:52 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
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If i want to listen to the rhythmical wizardry of PX, then I don't pop it on & say it sux cause it ain't Steely with Gadd. Both are extremely good stuff for WHAT THEY ARE in & of themselves.
That's why I like it all - from Elvin & Deej to Weckl, Virg, Dennis, & Vinnie [AWA all the above & the many others out there, 'famous' & otherwise] - ALL GREAT drummers in & of themselves, in their own right.
That's why you're FUSE! [img]cool.gif[/img]
Unfortunately, many (probably not in this forum) do not think this way...in fact, many simply do not. Greg B talks of his lesson(s) w/Tony W. and how Tony trashed Ringo leaving Greg in the role as apologist for Ringo.
A lot of it is ignorance where many are simply not cognizant of other drummers outside their "box." You would be surprised how many very good drummers are not aware of "others"...this forum is an education center for the most part and those who frequent often seem to have a thirst for drum knowledge, which often times discusses the various styles of drummers. If it was not for HOD, my drum thirst would be satisfied mostly by Modern Drummer and various internet interviews. There would not be the in-depth discussions we get into from time-to-time.
That one thread many moons ago (this will age me as a HOD'er) on the BRII tape, breaking down Weckl, Vinnie, & Gadd...I think there was around 40 posts on that thread. It was a tremendous education on the differences between each drummer as each person stated why they liked what. The thread just grew into this monster. There have been many monster threads over the years and this educates. We also have a world-wide audience here, giving a European perspective. Great stuff really.
Oh...speaking of the man himself...
Planet X Dates
July 7th 2004 - LAMA - Hollywood, CA
July 8th 2004 - Musician's Insitute - Hollywood, CA
July 9th 2004 - Baked Potato - Hollywood, CA
July 11th, 2004 - NEARfest 2004 - Bethlehem, PA
July 13th 2004 - Durty Nellies - Palatine, IL
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 05:57 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>
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I hears ya L&C, Pocket, m' man. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
It's all good, really; I don't let it get me 'in a tizzy' much anymore. [img]wink.gif[/img]
When I was coming up in drumming [still am, really; never-ending evolution], I didn't really care for Ringo; all i was interested in was that in your face, kind of obvious drumming from, say, a Neil. But now, when I look back at what R did w the Beatles, & i tell you, I feel like Gregg does about it, that it's just as viable - because those 4 guys made the Beatles - they WERE THE BEATLES. Neil's tom rolls or style wouldn't've sounded right for the Beatles - it would've ended up sounding like something else...
Personally, I could care less if Virgil can play swing like so-&-so or not [someone else]...Virg is VIRG, & I don't want VIRG to sound like Vinnie, Gadd, Weckl, Elvin, Tony, Erskine, Porcaro, or anyone else FTM...altho [& like Pete said] I too have no doubt whatsoever that, if he can't already, he could have it down well enough after a while if he just immersed himself in it for a period of time. I mean, it's not like he doesn't have the facility, technical ability, or mental imagination for it. But for now, one of the things he's mainly into is the the upper-level, prog/fusion rhythmic shredding thing. But if he can indeed swing well [prob in the contempo fusion way, more than likely], then that would REALLY floor me. But then he floors me as is.
And what he does he does well, if not BEST...For instance, I don't expect nor do i want him to be another Porcaro [or Gadd, Erskine, Hakim, Kennedy, Garibaldi, Elvin, Tony, Foster, Haynes, Campbell, Husband, Novak, Heredia, Wackerman, Stewart, Tain, Hamilton, Copeland; insert your fave kick-tail player here]. Jeff was JEFF. NO ONE can replace him [same with all the previously stated]. & JEFF would tell you that Virg is a freekin monster at what he does, & that he himself couldn't do what Virg does. He also said this of Weckl & Vinnie b4 his unfortunate & untimely departure from this world. So I says, let Virg be Virg...& enjoy it for what it is...I'm not necessarily listening to Virg w PX or OTV for classical-jazz-latin-world beat compositional enlightenment, altho some would argue otherwise [definitely rhythmically as it pertains to the drumset] & perhaps justifiably so...for that, I'll just go & listen to some 'Jackets or Metheny, or some of the master composers, or...ugetthepicture.
...& so i says, c'mon, kick my tail in some more, Virgski...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 09:04 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
